Hey Tony, great to hear from you! I'm curious why you think WAB is better. I've read the HC rules and here are my preliminary thoughts about WAB v HC as rule systems.
- WAB is in it's 2nd edition, which means many of the problems we ran into have been addressed. I had a chance to see a copy of one of my friend's WAB 2.0 book, and was surprised to see so many rules changed to correct problems originally created by our group. Leaders "drifting into combat" is a great example.
- WAB is probably more tournament ready, and already has a tournament culture.
- WAB probably uses less figures, but I think both games could work with the same number of figs.
- WAB has army lists already published for most periods up through medieval. HC has lists up through EIR only.
- My EIR are already based and ready to go for WAB, but with very little work I could get it to work for HC.
- WAB will be difficult for me to carry. I just did the math, and to import a copy of the rules and AoA would cost $105. I would then be lucky to sell them for what I paid to bring them in. VERY discouraging. I can SELL the HC rulebook and army list book for about $80 total and still make a normal profit.
- WAB is old fashioned. Unless things have changed, the whole guessing ranging and no premeasuring moves/charges thing has gone out the window by today's standards. I like the more flexible move system and allowing of premeasuring that HC permits. And I think that HC is closer to WHFB 8th than WAB, which was WHFB 5th modified. This is why I don't agree that WAB will be more attractive to GW players than HC. I think they would see WAB as a step backwards, while HC a step forwards.
- I think HC provides better tactical options. I'm impressed by the special rules for weapons and tactics in HC. And I think HC does a better job of handling how Roman Legions act in subsequent rounds of combat - a problem Jeff mentioned in his earlier post. I also like that I don't need a protractor for HC.
- Even if WAB is a better game, it's not THAT much better. What I mean is that I think I can get HC to work as a game and as a product line. As you well know, we got WAB to work amazingly well at Cliff's store as a game, but it was a disaster as a product line, and he eventually had to drop it entirely (remember the the "Great Yellow Wall" of Foundry Figs he had?).
- There are no "brand name" WAB figures, so it will be harder to establish as a product line in the store. Flames of War works for us because you have FoW figures, which stops most customers from going on the net to find alternative 15mm WWII figs. HC has a budding line of figs, so I can at least get some sales from that. The only way for any miniatures game to work in a store is for the store to make money selling the figs. It will be much harder to make WAB work because of this. As for medieval figs, most players I've talked to will just use GW Bret and Empire figs, at least at first. The Warlord fig line is very limited, so I'm looking to see what other lines I can carry. I'm in the process of setting up a wholesale account with Brookhurst, and I think they carry Foundry (though you won't see any "Great Yellow Wall" like in San Diego.
- My one huge concern about HC is that the command system could be a problem. This will require more play testing, but I know that the first time one of my subcommanders misses his first command role for the turn, meaning his whole division cannot move, I'm gonna be pissed. But the initiative system may solve that once we're at close range with the enemy.
- I like the speed of HC. WAB is very granular, and can take a lot of time to work out combats. HC has a faster combat resolution system, and seems to generate better results.
- I really like the support mechanism for HC, as well as the Proximity Rules. WAB often rewarded gamey play. While this made WAB more fun in some ways, all you have to do is play a game of WAB with my brother Cliff once and you'll see how easy it is to abuse those rules. HC limits troop movement once the armies close, and stops the shenanigans that were common in our group. As I stated above, I'm convinced that a good portion of the WAB 2.0 changes were generated in our store since we had both Jeff Jonas and Allen Curtis in our groups - meaning that our play style was not operating in a vacuum. Jeff and Curtis were the "adults in the room" watching us abuse WAB and they were in a position to correct us through correcting the rules.
- One of my problems with WAB was that it had "too many cooks". WAB was pretty much abandoned by Jervis,and my impression was that too many of the supplement authors were "historians" and didn't actually play WAB (Jeff being an excellent exception). Many of the lists they generated were problematic and had significant rules conflicts with lists from other books. Fall of the West is a great example of this. Maybe WAB and AoA 2.0 fix this, but I don't want to drop $105 just to find out. HC seems to be more managed and consistent. Rick Priestly has not abandoned the game, and seems intent on making it work. Like I wrote in a prior post, I've been talking to Rick on the Warlord Forums, and he seems eager to help.
I would like to hear specifics about why you, or anyone else reading this, thinks WAB is a better set of rules.
What, exactly, does WAB do better? Right now I'm not seeing much. But then again I have very little actual experience with HC, and no experience with WAB 2.0.
Like I said, if I conclude that WAB really is significantly better, then I will look harder at bringing it into the store despite the cost.
Tony, one last thing. When are you going to come up and check out my new store? It's awesome. You have to see what the Disney guy has been doing to the inside. Also, our TV show is in development and I would love to see you be a part of it. Again, GREAT hearing from you!
Warmest regards,
Chuck
GAME EMPIRE PASADENA
--- In WABlist@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <richrodg@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Chuck
>
> Tony from San Diego. I have played HC a few times but I still think that Wab is a better game.
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